1. orbito

    orbito Well-Known Member

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    Entourage opens a protest against Vogue because the following rule has been broken:

    10.10 Team´s iFVPA Champions League rosters must consist of players that are registered
    for no other team in any national league which is related to iFVPA. There is only
    judgement when the player played the game.

    The player "DRA-Cuninho" who played both ties and the golden goal game for Vogue is registered for Death Row Army in the German Pro League.
    In the following video the registration of DRA-Cuninho for Vogue (iFVPA Champions League) and Death Row Army (Pro League),
    as well as his participation in all three games can be seen.

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/533509444

    And while there are no slots for direct qualification for the iFVPA competitions in League 2, they are still related to iFVPA. Teams are eligible to qualify via the ProLeague Cup, to which they get access via said League 2. Also they are eligible to qualify for iFVPA competitions if teams from League 1 disband or reject to play internationally.

    Best regards,

    Entourage

    Video Source´s
    Clip 1: https://www.twitch.tv/chica16/clip/CorrectDeliciousEndiveSwiftRage
    Clip 2: https://www.twitch.tv/chica16/clip/RacyTangibleWeaselPermaSmug
    Clip 3: https://www.twitch.tv/chica16/clip/ManlyNaiveWitchCclamChamp
     
  2. TineriHenri

    TineriHenri Member

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    Dear IFVPA Admins and Community,

    Our defense for this rule manipulation which is to discredit our victory:

    Under VPN and IFVPA none of the Proleague 2 and lower division leagues are registered or connected. Also there is no possibility for a Proleague 2 team to qualify for Champions League. All the teams that can qualify are marked at Proleague website with colors and just in Proleague 1.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    We registered that player, played with him in group matches no information or warning given to us during these stages. This rule is not descriptive as the protest made. If there is a situation like this Admins should inform us and change the rule in more descriptive way. Also to mention rules can not be changed during tournament.

    Most of the Proleague International teams like SimpleX, Black Wyrm and Horizon are registered in 2 different leagues and still can qualify for multiple regions in Champions League. Proleague 2 has no direct slots for Champions League but the teams under Proleague International have two chances to qualify directly.

    We saw in previous seasons and in this season most of the teams in Europe League and Champions league play with players that are registered in the teams that can’t qualify and no action were taken. So there is no way for us to understand this rule as how Entourage manipulate it.

    Every season new leagues are created and teams are registering at Proleague. Their community have a lot of players from different countries. At the same time these teams have huge transfer slots. There is no way for us to follow these 2,3,4 etc. division teams and their players. Our only concern is related to first leagues. Its also hard for us to check 7-8 countries first division too.

    Entourage was aware with that players playing situation because our player and some their players are in contact before the match and after the match. Also they made runs and do hush signs towards him in the first match. Its obvious that Entourage is trying to manipulate the rule after loss. We are the guys that play this mode for fun, its not our life or professional job. We lost first match and did a miracle with a comeback. We achieve this by giving our hearth and everything to the game not by manipulating the rule.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    As we saw in the latest rules written by KingLuca at 2018. (Its also open-ended and can be manipulated too) The last sentence about judgement is not written. They took older rule written at 2017 to manipulate the tournament. The 2018 and latest written rule is below.

    [​IMG]

    Both in Europe League and Champions League we are aware of players that have the same situation like this. Even admins can’t control every 2nd 3rd leagues how can captains control. If this rule can be manipulated in that way a lot teams must get default loss too and that will effect tournaments fate and reputation in a bad way. Its not the case that most of the captains are breaking rules. That’s because they don’t know this rule can be manipulated in this way. Most probably they thought this rule is not about the case for the leagues that are not registered or have slots for the competition.

    TL;DR most of the rules are open-ended. Teams can pull it wherever they want. Even we are one of the clubs with a lot of international experience and achievements, we couldn’t relate this rule with this situation. At best, both for my team and for the tournament, the rules should be rewritten in more descriptive texts and admins should check the squads before the tournament starts. We gave our squad list 1 month before the tournament begins and we go through more than a half of the tournament. I believe Admins will give the best decision for tournament and don’t suffer teams. I’m as a volunteer ready for any role to minimize these rule manipulations by the next season. We hope this will not have such a serious consequence. We don’t want other teams to be in this situation too and don’t want to leave them in a difficult position. If admins want, we can share other teams with the same situation too.

    Best regards,

    Vogue
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  3. JonnyEsbeck

    JonnyEsbeck Staff Member [ iFVPA ] Moderator PC Moderator

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    Decision will follow tomorrow!
     
  4. James Penketh

    James Penketh New Member

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    We do accept there may be some ambiguity to the current ruleset put in place with regards to certain rulings. We have taken additional steps to make contact with the league owners to ensure that divisions below the top divisions are told whether there divisions are inclusive of IFVPA or not; this will be made clear in ruleset for them divisions.

    This incident is, unfortunately in direct contradiction of Ruleset 10.10. Unfortunately we cannot check each player manually and cross check that externally to see if he plays for the same team in their respective leagues as this would take a huge amount of time and resources. If there are concerns then we ask that you/ others should raise them as soon as made aware.

    We are aware that the ruleset is somewhat outdated and lacks detail on certain areas, this is why myself and jonny will be revising the rules after this tournament and removing the ambiguity and for that I can only apologise. In regards to yourself mentioning that someone else had also played for another division 2 proleague team this was only brought to our attention a few days ago and that the opponents did not make contact with regards to this and/ or raise a protest in accordance of the protest rulings.


    Now comes to the protest rulings. We've tried to say objective in regards to the verdict and it is clear there is a player in direct breach of rule 10.10. Any breach of rules #10.1 ~10.10 would unfortunately find that the games played in the Round of 16 for the Champions League game in question, 'Vogue vs Entourage fixture 1 & 2' to be Voided ( Result not upheld). This now means we can follow down the channel of a procedure of offering Entourage a choice of two options: (1) Entourage will now be offered a default win to the next round through a rule-break,thus 2 default 1-0 amended wins OR (2) They will also now be offered to accept/ decline a replay versus Vogue again in the Round of 16 on the grounds of good sportsmanship, although I must stipulate this is entirely down to Entourage and cannot be forced.

    Verdict:

    Result has been voided for Round of 16 on rulebreak of ruleset 10.10.

    Entourage are formally requested to accept option (1) or (2), as denoted above.

    We should expect a formal decision within 48 hours of this reply.

    Thanks James.
     
  5. TineriHenri

    TineriHenri Member

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    There is no possibility for DeathRowArmy to play at any international cups. They are currently playing at 2nd division and for them to have any chance to be in EL they need to win the cup previous season. So, they don't have any slots for international cups.

    The rule 10.10 states that a player should not be in 2 different teams that can compete in international cups at the same season. For example if Cuninho play for both Inter Berlin and Vogue teams then this rule can be applied because they will write him in their squad registration too. There is no way to relate Deathrowarmy within this rule.

    If there are any violation of breaking the rule why Entourage team didn't contact us before match? As Vogue, we don't know that we are breaking any rule. We are playing within fair play rules, if there are any rule violation we need to talk before the match. Entourage team know the situation and the rule, did they ask to any admin before match? If they did, please provide screenshots.

    Entourage have an admin in their squad (Esbeck) they should wrote him. Entourage know this situation but remain silent. As you remain silent you accept the situation. You should not open a protest after you lost. It's out of sportmanship and manipulative to report to the admin(Esbeck) that's also your own player. If Entourage tries to be a good sportsmanship team they should not remain silent while they know this situation because as Vogue we didn’t know it.

    There are examples that AliEmre and Cingool asked @KingLuca (who wrote this rule) whether they can play for both in CL and Turkish League, he said its ok and won’t be related with this rule. Because they won’t be in two squads at the VPN Website. It won’t be a problem because they won't be in 2 different squads at international cups. As we saw these examples, we thought there aren’t any problems playing with Cuninho.

    Are there any possibility for Esbeck to accept this rule with the manipulation for his own team Entourage? Entourage played the match with knowing this situation to gain advantage. As Managers Arigold and Orbito should check the player's status before match. For example as Entourage when you played against Nice Impulse if @KingLuca is not at the squad and playing in the match, wont you aware of it during the match? If I notice a situation like this, I will quit, check the player's playing status and warn the opponent team. Entourage should ask to admins and learn the rule. With knowing the situation before the match they gain advantage as a 2nd plan.

    Entourage can contact their own player Esbeck easily before the match however they didn't do it and play the match, so you accept it. Such as in Proleague if there are any missing player on a team captains ask if its ok or not and if the opponent accepts to play game they don't have any rights after the match for a default loss. Entourage may underestimate our power and assume they will score a lot of goals against us but it didn't go as they expected. Entourage remain silent to took advantage over us and open a protest after their loss. We lost our trust on Esbeck, he can easily decide for Entourage. The rule is written by @KingLuca for playing in 2 different teams at international cups situations.

    Thanks

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
  6. AriGold

    AriGold Member

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    No, actually that isn't what the rule states. That is what you want to read into them.
    The rules clearly say that it is not allowed to be part of another team that plays in a league that works with the iFVPA.

    "rosters must consist of players that are registered for no other team in any national league which is related to iFVPA"

    In your case this league is ProLeague, therefore it's clearly not allowed to be in a team that plays in the ProLeague.
    It doesnt matter if they actually qualified for the CL or EL, thats not what the rules say in any way and that's not what they were introduced for too.
    They had the opportunity to qualify through the cup, to which they get access BECAUSE they are part of ProLeague Two. Also they could qualify if teams from League One disbanded or declined playing internationally (like it has happened before!). Therefore ProLeague Two is related to iFVPA, yes.

    Because there is no need for us to check the validity of your players before the game, dont tell me you do that before every game. We saw his name in the game, yes. We were asking ourselves if its allowed that he played, but we werent sure. But its not my job to know if he is eligible to play or clear the situation up while we are in the game. It is yours and you simply failed at it.

    So what you are saying is that we should check your roster before the match and see if there is anyone not allowed to play? Thats not our job to do, again.
    And while Esbeck is part of our squad because he used to play for us, its not like we have him on short dial. He is inactive for quite some while. So no, we couldnt ask him while we were playing the match and therefore we finished the matches first, obviously.

    Again, what the hell are you talking about? We dont have to check your players status before the match. You have to do that and no one else, dont be ridiculous ^^

    Show me where you asked permission of us that a not-eligible player can play for you guys? Why are you making scenarios up that arent even related to what happened? No one asked anyone here.

    Actually it was written to prevent exactly the situation you guys abused. Nominating a player that is in a team that didnt make it to the international stage and get an advantage from that.
    People used to nominate players from other teams that arent in the competition to get a stronger squad in the past. Thats what this rule was introduced for to prevent.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
  7. JonnyEsbeck

    JonnyEsbeck Staff Member [ iFVPA ] Moderator PC Moderator

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    The reason of the rule was:
    1) to prevent super teams (like ari mentioned),
    2) be realistic as the real football,
    3) preventing teams from players that cant focus on one team (you all now its not possible to play in two different systems simultanously on a high level) and
    4) to solve the problem with the vpn (like tineri mentioned a little bit, there were several nations that used the vpn and for players of those communities it wasnt possible to play in 2 teams, guys from other communities had the opportunity before the rule. so we create the rule to eliminate that problem)

    As you already mentioned Tineri there are more clear examples like a player who plays for inter berlin and vogue. but the rule isnt there to cover only these cases. a better formulation would be: " it is not allowed to play for 2 clubs". "national leagues" covers the whole community of every nation related to the ifvpa, cause the local communities are allowed to distribute the slots like they want. for example they can give the slots out randomly or even sell them to their teams.

    I know that you think that i decide like this cause i am a german guy and an (very inactive) player of entourage but i would always decide the same in any other case thats violating the rule 10.10 if there is a protest within the first 48h after the match.
     
  8. JonnyEsbeck

    JonnyEsbeck Staff Member [ iFVPA ] Moderator PC Moderator

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    There are no resources to check every league, every player and every team during the whole year so we only focus on what happens with the teams in the tournements and if they are violating the rules. Everyone is charge of his own and always needs to play according to the rules. its not the task of other teams to check if the opponent is correct! THE IFVPA CL/EL RULES ARE RULES FOR THE IFVPA COMPETITIONS NOT FOR THE LOCAL COMMUNITIES OR FIFA. Outside of the ifvpa you can all do what you want to do, but if you take part of the ifvpa you need to follow the rules
     
  9. TineriHenri

    TineriHenri Member

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    This rule was written by @KingLuca you can ask him what it really means because all of the Entourage players including Esbeck are trying to interpret the rule as how they can get a default win. You are talking about distribution of slots but for this season there are 0 slots for DeathRowArmy and its not our business to check it for next seasons. We can only check their eligible status for current season. If you want to act objective then you need to ask the author of the rule what he means? Because you are still acting as a Captain of Entourage. There are a lot of examples of this situation in this season and previous seasons and proofs with players asked @KingLuca about it. Against this you only try to manipulate the rule by writing new things in every post. If the rule can be understood differently then its your job to fix it at the beginning of next season. Not use it to protect your own team. Be objective and show us examples as we are doing by referencing old Admin who wrote the rule.
     
  10. TineriHenri

    TineriHenri Member

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    WE WANT UNBIASED PERSONS TO DECIDE AND EXPLAIN IT.

    @AriGold you played 3 matches. You lost at the pitch and everyone know that. Its so funny that you are still claiming you asked yourself during the match. There are a lot of break between matches you can ask to your teammate Esbeck. Even Golden Goal match a risk for you but you still played it and lost at pitch. Be objective and use examples as we did don't try to win the match by interpreting the rule to your side.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  11. AriGold

    AriGold Member

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    Isn't James Penketh an unbiased person? He already stated his opinion and the decision.
    I honestly do understand your objection that JonnyEsbeck shouldnt decide this case alone obviously because he is part of our team. But as far is i know he didn't do that at all and tried to get objective opinions from different admins!

    Let me just explain it to you:
    Back then, this rule was introduced because many teams that played in the CL added players to their roster that weren't actually a part of the team, but players from teams that didnt reach the CL spots. So for example a striker from the german national team played for another team in CL than his regular one, just because they wanted help in that department. But thats not what this competition is about, you shouldnt create a super mixed team, but play with the players that are a part of your team and got you qualified for the competition. This got abused to hell a few years back, when this rule wasnt in place.

    Of course there were slots for them to participate in iFVPA competitions. If they progressed in the cup, they would have qualified.
    Its like saying a team in 10th place didnt get slots, because only 1st to 9th place are qualified. They had the chance, they didnt do it. So now they are free to play for you guys? Thats not how it works and how it shouldnt work too.

    I just want to let you know that if im not mistaken this may be the first time that we protest a match in all of our years playing competitevely here and we lost a whole bunch of matches. So its not that we always want to bend the rules in any way, its just clearly what the rules are stating and we want you and the other guys to act accordingly. It doesn't matter if other teams abused it as well and no one before questioned it.

    And btw, i understand your frustration because i genuinely think that you guys understood this rule in the wrong way.
    But its wrong to accuse us of anything, if you are the one who made a mistake. I dont think you did it on purpose.
     
  12. Gamerz

    Gamerz Member

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    Hi,

    I'm admin for ifvpa nation, manager for HoriZon (french club) and I would like to give you my opinion.

    Long time ago, we have the same problem.(Team Sense against elastico, you can see old posts in this forum)

    With your rules, you can call all the best boys in fifa and make a team. is it fair for an other people ?
    How to be sure for your boy "Dra-Cuninho", his belong for your team and not an other ? (Death Row Army and Vogue) Maybe more for Death Row Army and less for Vogue (only champion league). (don't know :))
    is it the same name of team ? in this case, not !

    you can say everything that you want. It's two different club.

    Before every game, is it your task to read the ruleset and prevent about it.

    This rule 10.10 is to be sure for :
    1/ fair play between us
    2/ same player, same team for everyone

    To make thing clearly, the best is to have the same calendar for every ligue related to ifvpa. Each nation have not the same number of club. (idea)
    By this way, maybe we can check.

    In my experience, fvpa france have not as the same number of club than proleague. So season are more fast for us. When it came the window transfert, we have a big trouble for player.
    champion league take more time than season and player can leave this club. bla ... bla... (Manager task)

    In short, and in conclusion, it will be fair to rematch this game and not a def win. We can add a hard sanction for your boy and manager for not handling that.

    Ps : I have seen Horizon mentionned in old post. Yes, we play in two ligues and refuse every slot for europe from proleague. But the name of team is the same for both.
     

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